Game Maker's Garage Forum
Game Maker's Garage => Trash Talk => Topic started by: Telstar5 on August 16, 2009, 06:33:50 PM
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/11/nhs-united-states-republican-health
I know that there's been talks of a nationalised healthcare service in America, and the republicans have gone loopy. Normally I wouldn't care, but what takes the biscuit is our health service being called 'evil', with some made up facts and figures in television adverts currently being run in the states.
Can I ask; what is America's fucking problem with free healthcare? The schools are controlled by the state. So are the police departments and fire stations - oh, and the banks, too - healthcare is simply the next step.
These adverts claim that you will not be treated if you are not considered valuable enough - let me correct this by stating that the NHS is primarily used as an emergency medical service rather than a health insurance company. If you need a hip replacement because you have arthiritus, you will have to wait. If someone has fallen down the stairs and broken their hip, then it will be replaced the same day because it is considered an emergency, therefore the arthiritus patient will need to wait.
Let me tell you all a story; when I was young and living in the states, I fell off a stool and sliced my tounge. My mother couldn't just take me to the hospital, oh no, I had to wait as she called the insurance company to make sure which hospital to go to. Fair enough, I was seen very quickly, but the five minute trip to the doctors cost my mother $400. Want more? When I was about to go into school, I had to have an injection for hepatitus B. Fourty god damn bucks - and if mum couldn't pay, then I couldn't go to school.
The American system of healthcare is so inhumane. What kind of society is based off of ability to pay rather than need? A child died of a tooth abcess in the richest country in the world because his mother couldn't afford the medical bill. They happily let people with cancer die because the money in their insurance policy has dried up. What kind of disgusting greedy system is this?
Good fucking lord, I'm pissed off. I seriously hope nobody here agrees with the right-wing crap coming out of the republicans this week.
Phew... well, there's some steam let off. What do you all think about Obama's new healthcare ideas?
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What exactly is the purpose of having national healthcare? Why are people against it?
Schools are strict when it comes to medical issues, they will not risk having a liability that could infect others.
The medical system is kind of like our food system. If you can't pay for it, you go without. Of course, there are some free hospital and food shelter services mostly hosted by Christian organizations.
You target the Republicans as a whole when you come to this argument, are you right in saying that the whole party believes in the same way?
I would like a bit more information of Obama's ideas and what supposedly the Republicans believe in as I know very little about these. I should probably visit CNN more often.
-Gandolf
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Phew... well, there's some steam let off. What do you all think about Obama's new healthcare ideas?
I don't, and seeing how it enrages you I suggest you do the same. Spend more time making games instead, nothing can take the merriment from that. ;) (except Java)
Once again btw, a tale of un-justice fails in comparison to that of an Irish parallel: I once went to get my ears checked after they started routinely leaking goo only to discover that the consultation alone was several hundred Euro and that I'd be placed on a 12 month waiting list before seeing a doctor. Needless to say my ears are still gooey.
The moral of the story is: Be thankful for what you have, there's always worse. And also: Turn down any free Irish vacation offers.
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I once went to get my ears checked after they started routinely leaking goo only to discover that the consultation alone was several hundred Euro and that I'd be placed on a 12 month waiting list before seeing a doctor. Needless to say my ears are still gooey.
I'm not sure how the Irish healthcare system works. Is it nationalised like it is on the mainland, or do you have health insurance?
You target the Republicans as a whole when you come to this argument, are you right in saying that the whole party believes in the same way?
Republicans are the ones coming out with this twoddle. Democrats are the ones who want healthcare reform. If they succeed, then I fully congratulate the democrats for finally getting a real taxpayer funded healthcare system. I'm sure there are a few republicans that believe in the idea that access to free healthcare is a right - but then again, most American people are against the idea of national healthcare in the states because it costs them money, and they believe that something being made free will always be used because it is free. If there was a shop giving away free lightbulbs, I'd only visit it if I needed a lightbulb. Likewise, if I'm healthy, I won't need to see a doctor. The purpose of a nationalised healthcare system is to offer medical treatment to those who cannot afford it, either because they don't earn enough or they are out of work. How right is it that a government can just leave people to decay without taking responsibility? Being forced to PAY to have a mandatory injection JUST TO GO TO SCHOOL? Ridiculous. The school should pay for the injection, or a nationalised hospital should.
The medical system is kind of like our food system. If you can't pay for it, you go without. Of course, there are some free hospital and food shelter services mostly hosted by Christian organizations.
How cute. Hey, I can't afford food this month, I guess I'll starve. It shouldn't be up to Christian organisations to provide healthcare and food to the poor, it ought to be provided by the government at the taxpayer's expense. Sure, there's the benefits system in America, but I know for a fact that it's nowhere near substantial enough for a person to survive off of.
If a kid is born in Detroit, does it make his life worth less than a kid born in San Francisco? Not really. They both deserve equal medical treatment, regardless of ability to pay.
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People are against nationalized healthcare because they are greedy bastards who only care about themselves.
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My problem with "Obama's" Health Care plan is-- well, I don't know what the plan is. I understand what they're proposing, but as far as implementation goes, the details thus far have been sketchy. Obama has done little to address it head-on, issues of funding, coverage, and [too much?] competition with the private sector are potential problems that our President seems to have answered with vague rhetoric at best.
Ghost
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You target the Republicans as a whole when you come to this argument, are you right in saying that the whole party believes in the same way?
No, but unfortunately the GOP seems to be headed by Palin and Limbaugh at the moment, and they're not portraying the best image of the party. Palin is concerned that Obama will start "death-panels," where he will choose who lives and who dies (which is completely ridiculous, his plan offers to cover "end of life consultations," where if you personally make the decision to end your life, and want to consult a doctor about it, it will be covered by the health care plan). Limbaugh "hopes President Obama fails," (why anyone would want America's leaders to fail is beyond me), and has been very vocal against nationalized health care, without much substance.
I agree that there are many intelligent, well-spoken Republicans out there, as well as Democrats. The problem is that the wing-nuts (ultra-liberals and ultra-conservatives) seem to be running the country's policies. It's really time for the moderates to find some common ground and push through a reasonable, cost-effective, and comprehensive health plan.
Ghost
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My problem with "Obama's" Health Care plan is-- well, I don't know what the plan is. I understand what they're proposing, but as far as implementation goes, the details thus far have been sketchy. Obama has done little to address it head-on, issues of funding, coverage, and [too much?] competition with the private sector are potential problems that our President seems to have answered with vague rhetoric at best.
Ghost
I guess you're right about funding details being sketchy... I believe the idea is that most of the plan will be paid for through the optimization and or cutting of unnecessary/ unsuccessful programs, and of course by taxing the super-rich.
I don't see competition with private insurance as a bad thing... it will encourage private health insurance companies to lower their prices and offer better coverage. With no free state run plan, private companies can all charge exorbitant prices without offering good plans.
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With no free state run plan, private companies can all charge exorbitant prices without offering good plans.
...which leads to millions of people living in illness.
I wonder how the CEOs of the insurance companies sleep at night, knowing that whatever price they charge, they are pricing someone out of the right to healthcare?
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...which leads to millions of people living in illness.
I wonder how the CEOs of the insurance companies sleep at night, knowing that whatever price they charge, they are pricing someone out of the right to healthcare?
On solid gold pillows.
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Hehe, QOTM.
-Gandolf
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Jokes aside, an American friend showed me this article...
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/18/chemo.closet/index.html
Again, how is this happening in the world's richest country? Ah, of course... No money, no treatment.
It's a no-brainer. Socialised medicine works. Hey, did anyone mention the sheer amount of jobs that will be created by socialised healthcare?
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You use that term too frequently and quite inaccurately:
Again, how is this happening in the world's richest country?
You and me could be at Subway, you may have $1 and I have 1 more than you. Just because I'm richer doesn't mean that I can afford a 1/2 foot long sub.
America tries, only so much people live in poverty, but the same is for other countries.
-Gandolf
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There's a big difference between a sandwich and healthcare.
I'm willing to bet that if you only have two dollars and you were desperate to be treated for a chest infection, you'd defend the idea of socialised medicine.
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Gan is right... just because America is the richest country in the world doesn't mean that the government can throw money around... we're in what, a bigillion dollar deficit? Thats why the new health care system needs to be well planned and executed, hopefully to the point that it will "pay for itself".
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Ah yeah, I forgot about that...
I'm guessing that the government in the states is paying back this debt by budgeting properly. It would only mean reallocating certain funds and maybe introducing a national insurance system like ours to get it to 'pay for itself'. Hey, we're in trillion-pound debt, yet we are spending money on an expensive illegal war, a healthcare system, schools, police etc etc... but then again, socialist morals are more popular here than in the states.
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Trillion is the new billion.
We'll just throw a trillion at the major banks to bail them out.
Then we'll throw out another trillion for the economic stimulus.
And while we're at it, maybe a trillion for national health care.
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Throwing trillions at banks was necessary, I think you'll agree. If we let the banks go bust, we end up with people losing their homes and then, hooray, it's 1930 again. Like wise, if the government can find money to throw at bankers, then they can find money to throw at national healthcare.
I think they should have given that trillion-dollar/pound package to every man, woman and child in each country to spend on whatever they like. That would get the economy moving, most likely... although the total amount would probably equal £5.47, enough to buy some cigarettes at least :P
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Banks take care of the public's money.
Banks go bankrupt and the public loses allot of their money.
A trillion dollars of public tax money goes back to the banks.
Wouldn't it make more sense to stop using banks? Or hang someone?
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I'm all for a socialized banking system, but country founded on free market blah blah blah.
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I think if you let banks fail because of their greedy practices, the country will be sent into turmoil, yes, but eventually will recover and be stronger.
I don't see the local 7/11 that's going out of business getting a government bail-out, it lost out to the am/pm across the street. Competition my friend, competition.
Ghost
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Completely different situation when it comes to banks... of course competition is good, but when a bank goes bankrupt an unacceptable number of people lose a lot of money to everything.
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Hey Telstar, today I talked with a woman that majored in social science and have learned quite a bit about Obama's plan and America's current health care system.
While you were ranting, raving, and getting infuriated by America's current system; you missed some major things about Obama's idea.
Here are a few pros and cons of Obama's ideas:
Pros:
- Cost will vary according to citizens, it will be more affordable.
Cons:
- American's will lose their right not to have health care. Yes, this is very important. When I was a baby, my parents had very little money and the times were hard. They could of paid $500 for health care, but put it into savings and went on a limb. Thankfully no problems occurred and they had an extra $500 which came in very useful.
- The government will control the health care, not the state. This is exactly what the United States Constitution was against when written. That the government shouldn't get too much power.
- A waiting list, very long.
You know... now I'm starting to think that our current system is not so bad. You see, it's not that most citizens can't afford it; it's that they choose not to get health care. In fact, most citizens can afford and get health care.
You know when you sliced your tongue and your mother called the insurance company? If we had national health care, you would be put on a long waiting list as your injury isn't very important.
I don't think that the Republicans are going all rebellious over a bit of control... I think they realize how this can damage the country and are willing to stand up for what they believe in.
If you want a prime example of what will happen if passed, check out Canada's health care system. Here's a chart with a few facts:
(http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/techgraph.gif)
Parliament unanimously passed the Canada Health Act in 1984 and established a single-payer, publicly-financed health care system. To ensure a true government monopoly (is there any other kind?) Canadian provinces outlawed private health insurance.
Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
- Cathryn Atkinson, April 8, 2008 [Globe and Mail]
Majority of Que. dentists quit health-care system
- March 27, 2008 [CTV.ca]
Why Ontario keeps sending patients south
- Lisa Priest, February 22, 2008 [Globe and Mail]
Will Socialized Health Care in the US Kill Canadians?
- Don Surber, March 3, 2008 [Acton Institute]
Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
- October 15, 2007 [CBC News (Canada)]
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
- David Gratzer, Summer 2007 [City Journal]
Cancer patients question why PET scan not covered
- May 28, 2007 [CBC News]
BC Medical Association: Waiting Too Long for Hip and Knee Surgery Costs $10,000 Per Patient-Maximum Wait Times Should Be No Longer Than 6 Months
- June 28, 2006 [CCN Matthews]
Here's the site for a ton more problem occurrences: http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#canada
-Gandolf
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Under Obama's plan, you WOULD NOT be forced to use the public health care plan. You can use any health care you want, or choose to not use any at all (which would make no sense, considering the public option would be FREE).
In fact, most citizens can afford and get health care.
You're kidding, right?
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You know... now I'm starting to think that our current system is not so bad. You see, it's not that most citizens can't afford it; it's that they choose not to get health care. In fact, most citizens can afford and get health care.
You know when you sliced your tongue and your mother called the insurance company? If we had national health care, you would be put on a long waiting list as your injury isn't very important.
An acute injury like getting my tounge sliced would go on a waiting list, yes, but we are talking about a waiting list in minutes rather than weeks or months like the anti-nationalisation people in the states are talking about.
Hey Telstar, today I talked with a woman that majored in social science and have learned quite a bit about Obama's plan and America's current health care system.
I wish your woman good luck in getting a medical job in the USA. Profit in an insurance company comes from spending less, and one of the most expensive things to keep around are employees.
It might be worth mentioning that the NHS is the world's 3rd most biggest employer. 1.3 million jobs, with many more positions available every day. It would certainly help out with getting people in the states off of the welfare system (which is much worse than ours, I have to say).
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I wish your woman good luck in getting a medical job in the USA. Profit in an insurance company comes from spending less, and one of the most expensive things to keep around are employees.
She's not going to be in the medical field. :P
-Gandolf
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Ah okay, my mistake. But still, what about all them jobs? It could be what America needs right now, seeing as the free market has fucked itself in the last two years with a major global recession.
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I am unsure wether or not national health care would provide more jobs, though then comes the question if more jobs would be good or worse for the nation.
I would have to research into a few more things.
By the way, if everyone is getting poorer, even the rich; where is all the money going?
-Gandolf
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Debt.
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then comes the question if more jobs would be good or worse for the nation.
How is it possible that more jobs could be bad for a nation?
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it ought to be provided by the government at the taxpayer's expense.
A lot of people in America don't pay taxes...
There are around 40-50 million uninsured people in America, according to the Census and other polls. 12 or so million are illegal aliens, and a good number of the rest don't need it because they can afford to cover medical costs. We don't need national health care to cover 25-35 million Americans.
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Harry's right, the need of NHS isn't high(Also probably isn't worth the downsides). It'd probably be better in focusing the money onto more important matters.
-Gandolf
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A lot of people in America don't pay taxes...
How is it possible to not pay taxes?
Harry's right, the need of NHS isn't high (Also probably isn't worth the downsides). It'd probably be better in focusing the money onto more important matters.
-Gandolf
I didn't think there was anything more important than health. What is more important than giving everyone the right to medical treatment?
The USA spends billions on it's military. If the USA can find money to kill people, then they can find money to help people in their own country. Why is the latter not as important as the former?
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How is it possible to not pay taxes?
I didn't think there was anything more important than health. What is more important than giving everyone the right to medical treatment?
The USA spends billions on it's military. If the USA can find money to kill people, then they can find money to help people in their own country. Why is the latter not as important as the former?
Its easy to not pay taxes, lots of senators get away with it all the time. ;)
Everyone already does have the right to health care, if your financial situation can't afford it, then I'm sorry, but you still have the right to it. You can always budget your income to afford it... This is America, the land of opportunity, so go out and make it work.
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You know... now that I think of it...
I guess prejudice against America isn't all in the wrong. I know a lot of Americans who just aren't right in the head.
For more information, visit http://www.failblog.org/ (http://failblog.org/tag/g-rated/).
-Gandolf
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LOL @ G-Rated.
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I priced health insurance last year after I was no longer eligible for coverage through mom's work.
Because I'm self employed, I would have to pay something like $400/mo.
I started college again - and volia, now I can get on their health thing for very cheap.
If I leave college again? $400/mo.
I had to go to the emergency room back in 2007 in an ambulance. The ambulance cost $600 without insurance, $200 after we submitted the insurance. The hospital bill was $2k WITH insurance, and they barely did anything. I don't remember going from the ambulance to the hospital room, but I remember lying there weak as hell and someone came in the room and was asking me to fill out this form so they could bill me. I wanted to tell them to f--k off.
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$600 for an ambulance ride? It would have been cheaper getting a cab.
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I priced health insurance last year after I was no longer eligible for coverage through mom's work.
Because I'm self employed, I would have to pay something like $400/mo.
I started college again - and volia, now I can get on their health thing for very cheap.
If I leave college again? $400/mo.
I had to go to the emergency room back in 2007 in an ambulance. The ambulance cost $600 without insurance, $200 after we submitted the insurance. The hospital bill was $2k WITH insurance, and they barely did anything. I don't remember going from the ambulance to the hospital room, but I remember lying there weak as hell and someone came in the room and was asking me to fill out this form so they could bill me. I wanted to tell them to f--k off.
Think National Health Care will make it any better? (If so, explain)
-Gandolf
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An extra $400 a month which can be better spent stimulating the economy, standards in care, and a chance for someone to get medical help when the need it, not when they can afford it. Oh, and the choice to pay for private health insurance if you want it.
From where I'm sitting, that's not a terrible deal.
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It does sound pretty great... until a few things get questioned...
With NHS, everyone gets health care? Even illegal immigrants?
Would health care be paid for by our taxes? If so, everyone will pay just enough according to how much money they make, right? I'm thinking Mike will pay nearly the same or even more due to the mass amount of people getting free health care.
What about jobs? My partner in my debate class said that both of his parents had to move to the U.S. when Canada adopted this system of health care. They're both doctors, lost their jobs, and there were no open slots in sight.
How many government sponsored programs aren't useless or not in debt?
You guys can probably guess that Health Care is the #1 topic in my debate class, so I better brush up. (Imagine the huge mass of papers I had to file just for Health Care, I believe it counts to about 4000 at the moment
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-Gandolf
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I'n not going to step into this, just wanted to point something out
With NHS, everyone gets health care? Even illegal immigrants?
You're kidding, right? Right now emergency rooms have to treat whoever walks in the door, including illegal aliens. Public healthcare won't change this, or make it any worse.
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Sorry, should of phrased that differently.
With NHS, everyone gets health care paid by taxes? Even illegal immigrants?
Of course everyone gets treated, though they also have to pay for their treatment. Insurance usually covers a portion of the pay, but won't NHS cover all of it? Even those who don't pay for NHS through taxes?
-Gandolf
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Are you bashing illegal immigrants?
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No. Well, maybe... Yeah, yes I am. I could see this turning into a debate on illegal immigrants.
-Gandolf
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No. Well, maybe... Yeah, yes I am. I could see this turning into a debate on illegal immigrants.
-Gandolf
Good Lord! Forget I said it! How's the weather over there have you see any good movies lately nice sig by the way is new tie I'm wearing...
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Sorry, should of phrased that differently.
With NHS, everyone gets health care paid by taxes? Even illegal immigrants?
Of course everyone gets treated, though they also have to pay for their treatment. Insurance usually covers a portion of the pay, but won't NHS cover all of it? Even those who don't pay for NHS through taxes?
Yes. Everyone gets healthcare. If an American is on holiday in Britain, our service will pay for their treatment - however I believe Obama's policy wouldn't give illegal immigrants any healthcare treatment (however I should point out that all of white America and all African-Americans are in fact immigrants in the first place).
Yes, again, the NHS is paid for by the taxpayer, even if you have health insurance. If there are people getting away with not paying tax, then the tax system needs to be reformed too. Our NHS pays for all medical bills, except certain prescriptions (in which case you have to pay about £7, depending on your income and/or age).
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Buh. Of course illegal immigrants shouldn't be paid for by taxpayers. However, who do you think pays for the illegal immigrants who go to a hospital, get treated, and can't pay? Oh wait... it's the taxpayers. Like I said, this is already a problem, and it won't be made any better or worse by having public healthcare.
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Except, that is, the dreaded waiting list and sudden decrease in jobs. (Also the billions-trillions of dollars paid to get the ball rolling)
-Gandolf
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I've asked this of you before... how exactly will a NHS cause a "sudden decrease in jobs"?
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You know, I really don't know. I'll have to research a little.
Though I'm thinking it may decrease jobs because the government is paying the doctors, and less doctors = more money? Possible. I have debate class on Monday, I should be able to dig up some harms in all the blasted paper work(Depending on how well I file information).
-Gandolf
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I'm thinking it may decrease jobs because the government is paying the doctors, and less doctors = more money?
lolwut?
You're so lucky that you actually have a debate class... my team practices once a week for like 15 minutes.