Religion And Science <--See what I did there?

[Swamp7hing]

y u no english?

Religion is undoubtedly the root cause of almost all human conflict. There are an abundance of flaws and contradictions in the text itself, and I understand how religion and spirituality may enhance the quality of life for some, but ultimately I've chosen science, as I can perceive and witness the physical over the mental. It's simpler to relate, understand, and exist - while religion struggles to form bonds between all those things.

I like the idea of a higher being, but have no proper evidence to confirm. Some may say 'The Bible', but what is the bible anyway? Words with meaning, on the pages of any hundreds of millions of copies. It's commonplace. It only holds semiotic meaning (meaning signified cultural value).

It's a tough debate, and I'll admit there are solid points for each side.  

[Gan]

Gan I mean no offence, but you started by saying "Yeah, just a whole buncha historical references, the Bible itself, archeological facts, and some random arguments against the darwinian theory. Ah, also don't forget cliff notes." And then just made a whole lot of claims plus your own opinions with nothing to lend any credence to your words. I expected better from you, and I can't take anything you say seriously if you are going to present an argument like that.

I know.   It was really late last night and I had an assignment to do. I think I'll dig up some sources and cite them properly.

Also I would love to see you try and refute the theory of evolution. While your at it, may as well try and refute theory of gravity, the theory of relativity and the theory of thermodynamics.

Evolution? Easy as pie. Gravity? Nearly 3 times harder. 9.81...
I actually read a scientific article against gravity, crazy eh? What's nice is that the effects of gravity are easy to witness. While evolution, eh... Maybe micro but not macro.
For the theory of relativity, could you specify? Talking about how light travels relative to an object or the idea that everything is a matter of perspective with no truths?

Religion is undoubtedly the root cause of almost all human conflict.

Root? No. Maybe a branch of it, but not the root. The root of human conflict is the lust for power and people will use religion for their own gain. Though there are some disturbing religions out there. Some requiring you to sacrifice children, others involving self mutilation, promoting drug use, and even calling people to kill infidels.

There are an abundance of flaws and contradictions in the text itself

Specifically the Bible? Where?

but ultimately I've chosen science, as I can perceive and witness the physical over the mental. It's simpler to relate, understand, and exist - while religion struggles to form bonds between all those things.

Depends on the religion.

I like the idea of a higher being, but have no proper evidence to confirm. Some may say 'The Bible', but what is the bible anyway? Words with meaning, on the pages of any hundreds of millions of copies. It's commonplace. It only holds semiotic meaning (meaning signified cultural value).

Evidence can only be found through observation. The Bible provides plenty of evidence which I'll have to cite in an upcoming post. Then again, if you really think about it and get all down and dirty in logic you can say that it makes sense that an intelligent being made everything. (I'll probably have to further expand on this)


I'm gonna post again a bit later. I'll try my best to answer Eq's previous questions and what you guys have to say. In fact I'll work on citing my sources.

[Zoo]

http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
This is the bible translated into lolspeak. Man I want this book.

[x]

Evolution? Easy as pie. Gravity? Nearly 3 times harder. 9.81...
I actually read a scientific article against gravity, crazy eh? What's nice is that the effects of gravity are easy to witness. While evolution, eh... Maybe micro but not macro.
For the theory of relativity, could you specify? Talking about how light travels relative to an object or the idea that everything is a matter of perspective with no truths?

That wasn't an argument against gravity. It was an argument suggestion gravity is like centrifugal force - theres technically no such thing. Someone suggested that gravity is a like a 3D warp in the fabric of space, much like a pit is a warp in the fabric of 2D space. Since we much cling to the surface of 3D space, it is easier to go with gravity than against, and hence it has its effect - we always follow the path of least resistance.

By the theory of relativity I mean the whole theory. The fact that light moves relative to the beholder is one small part of it. The most important part is that space and time (spacetime as it was coined by Einstein) are relative and any movement through space diverts our movement through time, and most importantly nothing can move through either space or time at a speed greater than that of light.

No example of macroevolution? The human biology department at my university alone has hundreds. Here are a few of the more notable ones I could find photographed and explained on the internet:
http://chem.tufts.edu/science/evolution/HorseEvolution.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils


Also if you are going to buy into creationism how do you explain the abundance of fossils found? Also how do you explain that every dating technique in existence points to the Earth being older than a few thousand years? How do you explain the geological layers built up over time that very accurately coincide with the numbers given by ALL of these dating techniques? How do you explain the hundreds of thousands of comet craters on the Earth and moon, considering no big onces have hit in living memory (the last few thousand years). Are you going to say that God created it like that? If so why? To refute claims of his own existence? Because that would make little sense. If God had the power to create the Universe, why does he not have the power too stop world hunger or poverty? Or better yet why doesn't he just wipe humanity from the face of the Earth, for if all creatures are God's creatures we are surely a virus infecting and destroying his ecosystem at an amazing rate.

[GMG Tim]

What's nice is that the effects of gravity are easy to witness. While evolution, eh... Maybe micro but not macro.

Yes, evolution has been observed at the micro level. What happens at the micro level eventually contributes to the macro level (i.e. many small changes over time are large changes). That is to say, micro- and macro-evolution are not mutually exclusive. I actually specialized in macroevolution and phylogenetics, and both sympatric (Barluenga et al 2006) and allopatric speciation (Darwin's finches, also Dodd 1989) have been well documented in nature through many scientific papers. This, combined with what we observe on the molecular level is irrefutable evidence that yes, speciation does occur.

[Telstar5]

Look closely. It's a fossil. Once a proud living creature many millions of years ago. According to creationists, this poor thing - all the BILLIONS of these poor things - was placed on the earth by Satan to try and trick us. I don't know about you, but that's an awful lot of pressure to put on a dead ammonite who only cares about eating plankton.

[Zoo]

Pfft. It's an old cinnominn roll. Who cares.

[GMG Tim]

According to creationists, this poor thing - all the BILLIONS of these poor things - was placed on the earth by Satan to try and trick us.

I must admit I am biased on this matter, however. I believe creationism should be banned from public school curriculum.

[Gan]

That wasn't an argument against gravity. It was an argument suggestion gravity is like centrifugal force - theres technically no such thing. Someone suggested that gravity is a like a 3D warp in the fabric of space, much like a pit is a warp in the fabric of 2D space. Since we much cling to the surface of 3D space, it is easier to go with gravity than against, and hence it has its effect - we always follow the path of least resistance.

Found it:
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/04/is-gravity-a-result-of-thermodynamics.ars

With the advent of quantum theory over the past 100 years, scientists have been able to develop an elegant mathematical framework capable of uniting three of the four fundamental forces that are thought to exist in the universe. The fourth, gravity, still remains the fly in the ointment, and has resisted unification to this point. Early last year, Dutch theoretical physicist Erik Verlinde published a manuscript to the arXiv that purports to explain why science cannot reconcile all four fundamental forces. According to him, it is simple: "gravity doesn’t exist."

Crazy, eh?
And.... I skimmed the rest of the article.

Pfft. It's an old cinnominn roll. Who cares.

That's funny.  

Anywho. I've noticed my time is limited, I'm gonna be spitting out answers in bits instead of a super humongerous post like I was planning.

[x]

Hey Gan that article says exactly what I said :p. Its not saying gravity doesn't exist, its just saying its not a force unto itself.

[Xiphos]

Religion isn't law. It's spirit

Those are some bold words.

[Gan]

You might want to quote Kurt's whole paragraph, that wasn't the only or main sentence I was referring to.

[Xiphos]

I am aware. Just thought I would go ahead and derail this thread.

[Silverwind]

Someone told me to check out this website the other day, and it seems extremely helpful: http://www.christianityexplored.org/

They've taken the time I don't have to offer biblical answers to some of the biggy questions concerning life, the universe and everything. Worth a look perhaps!

[Zoo]

 life, the universe and everything

42!