Religion And Science <--See what I did there?

[Gan]

First I gotta say:
We Didn't Start The Fire!


In a brief moment I had the chance to use Doctor Who's Tardis to go back through time and retrieve a partial of the Religion Vs Science thread!
Unfortunately I was a little off and managed to get just the beginning of it. I wanted try again to get the whole thing but then the Daleks started attacking. Doctor Who needed his Tardis back to, you know, save the universe. Sorry guys.


























(Click To Enlarge)



(Bahaha. I actually retrieved this by going to my home folder->Library->Cache->apple.com.safari->Web Previews and then some searching to find the right image. Turns out Safari saves nearly all sites you go to. So heh, might want to be careful next time you're being sneaky.)

[x]

Aw man you cut off my post!

[Telstar5]

Oh boy, another religious debate, as if it hasn't happened on the internet before. Ever. Another internet debate where religious people preach with wide eyes and alienate me to the point that I want to hang myself and where rational, sensible people turn into frustrated stressed out monsters who go to bed so wound up they chew the mattress just because they're filled with so much anger.

Yawn.

[Gan]

That was a very vivid and disturbing picture.

[EqwanoX]

damn, my second post was the real follow up to silverwinds response, it was something like:
black and asian people? yea, but didnt we all came from noahs family?
doesnt the noahs ark story imply incest
why are there so many languages if we all came from one family
why did god leave the fate of all liveing creatures in the hands of a human?
why did god create dinosaurs before humans? was he just testing the waters? was it an accident? give me SOMEthing! but you cant cause the bible was written during a time before the existance of dinosaurs was known
why did god stop interacting with us?
-alpha-maleism amoung angels and god? why do angels have these flawed human behaviors? why would angels lust for power when theres no benefit of power in heaven sinse theres no such thing as luxury or material things, its not like any of them have to work for a liveing
-if lucifer was so jelous that god made earth, why didnt he just go make a better one, i mean what else has he got to do for the rest of eternity?
-how much is the discount do you get on games at toys r us?

-when you think of these ideals in literal terms, they make no sense. its like, how many good deeds can i do to get a freebee bad deed? what if i cured cancer, thats a pretty good deed, i could probly kill a few people and still make into heaven, silliness

 the bible is filled with so many fairy-tale-like stories, i think only people with a very limited understanding of the world could believe it, and thats just my opinion, and i dont mean that in a derogatory way, i WANT to belive in an afterlife, but when you consider whats beyond our universe or even just our galaxy, and just how much civilization has evolved in the past 2000 years sinse jesus last "visited" us, the stories in the bible just dont add up. i wonder if religion will still be around in 100 years, cause i think civilization will evolve alot more in the next 100 years than it has in the past 2000 and people will be so naturally educated and smarter from all the accessible information that the bible will just be an out-of-date primitive understanding of existance and rules. oh i just realized, "rules", thats another reason for the bible and religeon. its a reason to behave during a time when society and government was so uncivilized and dangerous, that this threat of an afterlife in hell would force you to conform. and now the standard of living is so good for most people theres no reason to be angry commit crimes, plus government and law enforcement is much more efficent now, people dont need the threat of an invisible man watching them

what troubles me is that all our thoughts, feelings, culture, beliefs, and all that are just a bi-product of conciousness. and conciousness is just a bi-product of creatures that have more sophisticated biology than an amoeba. our purpose is the same as any other life form, to exist and multiply. but becuase we have more sophisticated tools such as hands, we need a more sophisticated mind to use them, and its as if self-awareness is just a side-effect of a sophisticated mind.

when you sleep and dont dream, where your conciousness is turned off, is that death? cause when my mind dies where will my conciousness go? will it cease to exist or frolic in the clouds with people that have wings and nice boobies..... which reminds me, will i still be atracted to female anatomy? cause some of those angels dress somewhat provocativly

sensible people turn into frustrated stressed out monsters who go to bed so wound up they chew the mattress just because they're filled with so much anger.

this isnt really a debate about religion, i believe in "god", this is more about the bible sounding like fiction. for this topic to work, we need silverwind to participate sinse he knows this stuff

silverwind, we await your response

[x]

I would like to preface this by saying is am very strongly against conventional religion on almost every level.

I still think there is an argument for A God if your definition is warped enough, although perhaps not in the way most would conceive of. You need to understand I use the term God very loosely. I mean by it some sort of higher intelligence. Not a power or "being". Just another level of intellect. Let me explain. We know that the human brain is made of billions of neurons, none of which are touching. They are separate, yet communicating. Furthermore there are many regions of the brain that process specific groups of things; for example the precentral gyrus is known for motor initiation and is thus the primary motor cortex, the post central gyrus is the primary sensory cortex and has a somatic map, Broca's area is important for hand gestures and motor control in speech - etc. The point is this; the brain has many disparate functions, but where does it all come together? At what place does it become consciousness, the fundamental "I"? The best answer modern Neuroscience has been able to come up with may not please you, it is that the mere processing of data as a unit, gives rise to the experience of a conscience, and the idea of the ego, the me, whatever you want to call it. Simply put, the facets create the whole without need of a singularity or convergence point. Given this assumption think on this: if all our brains are separate and are processing "as a whole" the same reality (which minor Einsteinian differences, but lets ignore these as they are inconsequential) does that mean that our collective intelligence would give rise to a higher conscience? Are we collectively all a "God"? Personally I think there would be nothing more fitting than this. The universe created us from star-stuff, intricate patterns built up over time, through chance and oppertunity and error we came to be. And now, in the very act of arguing the existence of a God, in trying to validate out own ephemeral and entirely unprovable existence we create "God". Not a benevolent creator, nor a wicked dictator, but instead whatever we are, our collective thoughts and dreams.

Perhaps we are the raw material that evolved to form this higher consciousness. Much like our own cells - maybe - if they could think they might think they are an individual in a great community, when really they are only the units that make up our existence. First there was mere RNA, the beginning of a great tree of evolution. Then came cells that housed the newly altered form of RNA known as DNA. Then these cells made up organisms, and now perhaps organisms make up something else. Why can't these millions of years of evolution not progress towards another level of intelligence? Of course I don't actually believe any of this, and I certainly wouldn't waste my time trying to prove it, I am just trying to make people think. Its more of a verbose and bombastic troll (I can't think of a better word) than anything else. Still, its a nice thought.

I have, however, strayed away from science, and into half supported speculation. But if that is not the fuel of Philosophy, I don't know what is.

[GMG Mike]

There's too much focus on some specific event and the requirement that you must believe in this event in order to not go to Hell.

Assuming there's a God (and I have no concrete evidence either way - this is called agnosticism) - and there's a Heaven and Hell and all of that, you know - what I hold in my heart is to ultimately do the right thing, yes I've sinned, and I'll inevitably sin again, by various definitions - and geez, I'm sorry about that.

If that's not enough - damn, that sucks. I'd like to think God's a little more understanding than some black and white definition. A murderer goes to Heaven and someone who lived by a simple but honorable creed - do the right thing - they go to Hell?

There's really no argument you could make to budge me from this belief so don't bother. It's just an idea that I've put forth.

[GMG Kurt]

The Bible is a story, and somethings in there are just that. Stories. But that is not to discredit it. It is to stop fixating crucially on the details of a story passed down a hundred times, before being written down. and believing that to be the word of God. It's not. It's just an outline to be interpreted. It may sound stupid but I learned that from Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Everyone's game isn't supposed to be the same following concrete rules. It is supposed to be a flexible outline with a lot of extra stuff only a few people (extremists) actually believe is law. But it's not. It is just an idea for you to seriously consider, and interoperate differently than even your best friend. Religion isn't law. It's spirit

[Gan]

Those are some bold words.

Got anything to back it up?

[EqwanoX]

Those are some bold words. Got anything to back it up?

uh-oooohhhh, gan the flamer is flameing it up!

[x]

Those are some bold words.

Got anything to back it up?

Got anything to refute it?

[Gan]

Got anything to refute it?

Yeah, just a whole buncha historical references, the Bible itself, archeological facts, and some random arguments against the darwinian theory. Ah, also don't forget cliff notes.

The Bible is a story

A story can be either true or fictitious. The bible contains many first hand accounts recorded by scribes.

It is to stop fixating crucially on the details of a story passed down a hundred times, before being written down. and believing that to be the word of God.

Something you must know, the new testament of the Bible was recorded while it was happening. No word of mouth passing. These guys, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and many more witnessed stuff and wrote it down.

The old testament is a bit different, it's before Jesus. It was written by prophets describing historical events, God's word, and prophecies to happen. In fact, in the old testament they wrote about Christ and the prophecies he would fulfill. They recorded hundreds prophecies. Hundreds of prophecies have come true. Especially about Jesus.

and believing that to be the word of God. It's not. It's just an outline to be interpreted.

The Bible is a history book. A history book that outlines in detail how to get to heaven. It's not easy to interpret differently cause it's pretty specific. It states that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Fairly straightforward. No complex pray 7 times a day and sacrifice to Mecca.
Then there's the 10 commandments, those don't leave room to interpret either.

In fact now that I think of it, there was no word of mouth passing down. Every book was written by a certain scribe. In fact one such man named Paul wrote the book of Phillipians whilst in a roman prison.

Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Everyone's game isn't supposed to be the same following concrete rules.

I suppose the same goes for our country's laws? Ya know, killing's illegal for you but hey, I only follow some of the rules and that's not one of them.

It is supposed to be a flexible outline with a lot of extra stuff only a few people (extremists) actually believe is law.

It is? Did you write it? Cause I'm pretty sure in the Bible it states that:
John 14:6
"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I don't see much flexibility.

interoperate differently than even your best friend.

That is, if you and your best friend even read it.

Religion isn't law. It's spirit

Ahh.... what?

[GMG Tim]

some random arguments against the darwinian theory

Wait, I know I wasn't gonna participate but... really?

[Gan]

Yeah, really.

[x]

Gan I mean no offence, but you started by saying "Yeah, just a whole buncha historical references, the Bible itself, archeological facts, and some random arguments against the darwinian theory. Ah, also don't forget cliff notes." And then just made a whole lot of claims plus your own opinions with nothing to lend any credence to your words. I expected better from you, and I can't take anything you say seriously if you are going to present an argument like that.

The same goes for Kurt when he said:
"The Bible is a story, and somethings in there are just that. Stories. But that is not to discredit it. It is to stop fixating crucially on the details of a story passed down a hundred times, before being written down. and believing that to be the word of God. It's not."
After that its purely opinion, which needs no references I guess, and is perfect OK in my opinion.

Also I would love to see you try and refute the theory of evolution. While your at it, may as well try and refute theory of gravity, the theory of relativity and the theory of thermodynamics.