Now is the time to learn Obj-C!

[Telstar5]

FIGHT THE POWER

[Gan]

I'm not converting it. If Apple won't take REALbasic programs in the store, then they can rot.

It's not that Apple won't, it's that they can't.
Apple can't take anything but Xcode made products cause anything not made by Xcode can't be analyzed. If Apple took any product from anywhere there'd be pirated games, applications that steal user data and other harmful products.
The Mac App Store may become a big deal 88 days from now when it launches. Ignoring it won't do anything but cause Sc to fall a little further into the void.
That game maker has done some incredible things, without it most of us wouldn't be where we are today. I'm willing to put a little effort into making Sc better. Why aren't you?


-Gan

[WarHampster]

You've just killed any chance of a moderate and reasonable discussion.

[Gan]

You've just killed any chance of a moderate and reasonable discussion.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

But I would like to continue a reasonable and productive discussion with anyone else that would like to do so.


-Gan

[Telstar5]

Apple can't take anything but Xcode made products cause anything not made by Xcode can't be analyzed. If Apple took any product from anywhere there'd be pirated games, applications that steal user data and other harmful products.

We've been using things not made with Xcode for years now. Sure you can analyse what programs do. You can look at what they read and write, where they store information, what packets they send and receive - they have testing labs specifically built for this purpose, truth is that Apple is just... well... cheap.

I don't know where this not-Objective C/pirated games and anarchy combination comes from. OS X is supposed to be secure and free from harm - Apple's words, not mine - is OS X somehow not what it's supposed to be? Should we all go out and panic buy Norton for Mac with that logic?

[Gan]

The App Store's #1 priority is safety. Apple doesn't want lawsuits so it has to restrict the kinds of apps that can get in.

There are 2 major scans Apple does. The first is the review. It's where a tester spends time playing with the application to see if it behaves appropriately. Though many things can be hidden from the tester.
Then 2nd test is where a computer analyzes the application in search of undocumented APIs. Undocumented APIs can give access to a program to potentially destroy a computer.

If Apple allows any program of any language then the second scan is worthless. They can't detect if the application uses potentially dangerous code.
The first scan by itself isn't good enough.
For example I could make an app in Java that is good in every sense and passes the first scan. Though in the code I hid a timer that after a week the app starts collecting personal data and sending it off to be sold to an advertising company.

If Apple allowed any program in then that example Java app could get in without detection. Then wreak havoc. Though with the second scan Apple can detect code in the program that accesses certain APIs and stop the app.
The second scan can only work because Apple made Obj-C.
That's one of the reason's what the Android store is so unreliable and a few studies have found many common apps that use personal data.


-Gan

[Telstar5]

get a life

[WarHampster]

You guys are so predictable.

[Silverwind]

In fairness Tel, you seem quite Hell-bent on stating your opinion, and Gan's only doing the same thing with considerably less aggression. Don't start making personal remarks.

[Gan]

get a life

Ok.

You guys are so predictable.

Yeah.

So I posted two tutorials, one on making a messagebox and the other on making a game from scratch. Anyone find them useful?


-Gan

[GMG Hendo]

You guys are a bunch of whining babies. Programming isn't supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be powerful and flexible. You guys seem so afraid of a new challenge that can be EXTREMELY profitable.

Don't knock Obj-C just because you aren't intelligent enough to learn it.

[Telstar5]

take a joke, lighten up etc.

I just fail to see why Apple's gentrification of their own platform is a positive thing. Fine, goldrush etc, but what about the long term? Am I the only one that cares about SC and GM being cast even further into obscurity because Apple are about to turn the Mac into a walled garden where Objective C is realistically only allowed to exist? It just makes me ill.

I've spent nearly my entire teenage years telling people that Apple are awesome and that they care about developers; now it seems they only care about where the money comes from. It makes me sick that they would even consider imposing rules on what is going to be the primary distribution channel for - let's face it - 50% of all Mac software. Little communities like this are just going to be gone.

Sorry if my opinions seem to be a source of offence, it's just that the only platform that has ever catered to my principles is about to become everything I thought it wouldn't.

I now wonder where else there is left to go. I'm pretty sure that Apple don't deserve a single penny off me for anything ever again, and they certainly don't deserve my developer support off me if they tell me that I will never get anywhere with Mac development if I don't use their in-house tools - fine, that's not what they've said, but read between the lines.

Whatever happened to the Think Different company... sigh

[Gan]

they only care about where the money comes from

Apple's sitting on 50 billion and have barely touched it. They literally have no need for money.

It makes me sick that they would even consider imposing rules on what is going to be the primary distribution channel for - let's face it - 50% of all Mac software.

They have no choice. If anything could get in the Mac App Store it would be unreliable and anyone who downloaded anything destructive or privacy violating could sue.

read between the lines.

Sometimes the meaning is in the text.

Whatever happened to the Think Different company... sigh

It's still there and making new stuff. Seriously, a dedicated App Store that'll be on every Mac. This is definitely a first of it's kind for a computer platform. (Just wait till windows copies it)


-Gan

[Telstar5]

Seriously, a dedicated App Store that'll be on every Mac. This is definitely a first of it's kind for a computer platform. (Just wait till windows copies it)

INSOLENCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Packaging_Tool

This tool is pretty much the new Mac App Store in command line form. There's a whole slew of package managers and reference servers - Damn Small Linux has one built right into the system and has done for years, as does Ubuntu and if I'm not mistaken, Haiku has one too. It's great. You connect to these servers, look through the packages - if there's one you want, you download it and the OS does the rest. It's the same concept as the App Store, except Apple have just put in more opportunities for you to spend money.

Sometimes the meaning is in the text.

No. Apple want to turn the Mac into a walled garden slowly - it's implied. 10.7, sure, you could download apps the old way. But in 10.8, will there be any need? Just insert a bit of code into Safari or the WebKit to stop you downloading any archives which might contain .app or .exe files freely and oh look, Apple's share price just went up $50.

The only reason the "protection of customers" meaning is in the text because that's what you'd like to see.

They have no choice. If anything could get in the Mac App Store it would be unreliable and anyone who downloaded anything destructive or privacy violating could sue.

again, no - the developer would get sued, it's not difficult to add a bit into the EULA that says "we accept no responsibility for the applications here - if they break your computer, talk to the developer, it isn't our problem". Also - seriously - when was the last time you downloaded any Mac app that was destructive? What's to say that an unscrupulous and incredibly naughty Objective C developer won't write an encrypted virus into an application that is set to deliver a payload after a few months? That's not very safe, and Apple wouldn't be able to check for it in that all of one half of ten minutes that they probably spend testing and checking an application.

Apple's sitting on 50 billion and have barely touched it. They literally have no need for money.

Irrelevant - their executives get paid bigger bonuses each time their revenue increases and their shareholders get paid bigger dividends. If you ask me I think Apple have chucked their principles because they've been corrupted by the evil dollar...

[WarHampster]

Found this on another forum, I completely agree with it:

Obviously, they're not going to accept applications which are likely to cease working in an OS version or two.  That's not good for the consumer.  I like to think of that, the "no private APIs" rule, etc. as a partnership between you and Apple -- you agree not to do a few things, and in return, they agree to do their very best to keep your app working across OS updates.

Re: Java, what they are prohibiting is not "using Java", but "relying on the presence of Java-the-optional-install".  If you can embed a JRE in your application, or use GCJ, Alchemo or similar to produce a native executable, you would appear to be in the clear...

Given an OS with a command prompt, interpreters for endless scripting languages, free and open-source development tools, etc. I can't really envisage a future where the App Store is the *only* way to get applications.  That would require locking down the OS in ways that consumers wouldn't accept (and that would make the OS useless to a significant number of the users, Apple internally not least).

I *can* envisage it being the only way to reach 90+% of users.  But then again, currently you have *no* way to reach most of those users.  They surf Facebook, write emails, make their iMovies and sort their iPhotos.  Soon they'll be buying apps too.

Disclaimer: I work for Apple, but do not speak for them.  These opinions are my own.